# Accepting Change in WordPress  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: Accepting Change in WordPress - Show: The WP Minute+ - Owner / Host: Matt Medeiros - Guests: [Nathan Wrigley](https://share.snipd.com/person/3ad33d72-a0db-474f-b1b2-13567fabc2c3) - Episode publish date: 2025-03-24 - Episode AI description: Nathan Wrigley, a leading voice in the WordPress community and podcaster, dives into the transformative effects of AI on development. He shares personal insights about his initial skepticism towards AI tools and highlights their potential to speed up prototyping while maintaining creative integrity. The discussion also tackles the philosophical implications of AI, such as its capacity to disrupt traditional business models and the evolving role of WordPress professionals in a rapidly changing tech landscape. Wrigley underscores the necessity of adapting to these advancements to thrive. - Duration: 01:00:14 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/2b51fe73-75eb-4716-9c0c-57e8f853b767) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/6da84b69-b825-4cef-9a81-24e1aeeb5c5d) - Export date: 2026-02-17T23:23:36 ## Snips ### [Audio Preference](https://share.snipd.com/snip/b329af64-63c4-4471-8868-7f5bac41e94c) 🎧 01:59 - 04:54 (02:55) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/add6b8b2-9977-4471-9295-20bfaa9ec6b3" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Nathan Wrigley prefers audio podcasts due to his childhood habit of multitasking while listening to the radio. - He records video podcasts solely for practicality, but his core audience consumes the audio format. #### 💬 Quote > My gut reaction is to firstly make a massive confession. And that is that the podcast platform that we're using to record this is currently not recording the video. > — Nathan Wrigley Nathan Wrigley on his video podcast setup. #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** podcasting is now video and not audio? And what's your gut reaction? **Nathan Wrigley:** My gut reaction is to firstly make a massive confession. And that is that the podcast platform that we're using to record this is currently not recording the video. Have I made a giant error? But **Matt Medeiros:** you do live streaming, right? So do **Nathan Wrigley:** you consider the live stream, podcast as well? Yeah, I do. And my thing is all audio. I am all in with audio. And I'll tell you why. It's a personal preference. And it's based upon my childhood, really. And it occurred to me at an early age, I wasn't told this, but it occurred to me that I could do things at the same time as listening to the audio, do things which I wanted to get done, you know, and it might be chores around the house or DIY or whatever it may be. And I've always preferred the radio to the TV. I watch very little TV, but I consume a massive amount of, well, I don't consume much radio anymore. It's all podcasts. So for me, audio all the way, very conscious decision. And the only reason that I record my show on a Monday as a video is because it's the only real way to do that. But it gets recycled as a, as a sort of audio podcast episode. And that's where, that's where my audience is. It's not **Matt Medeiros:** really on YouTube or anything. What about you? podcasts audio podcasts and and i do jump between youtube and you know my favorite podcast app of the week and it's it's it's great but i will always defend audio because listen when it comes to a just production level right as you know, it's just so much easier to do audio than it is video. Every second counts. Excuse me, the train is moving above my head right now. Every second counts in editing and production and setting up. So I am all in with audio. recently launched another project called Our Beloved Medium, which is an audio slash fictional entertainment series. And if we did video with that, it would have been a motion picture. Yeah, it would have we would have to hire actors, actors. I mean, it impossible to produce what we produce with which is story, voice acting, sound effects, all this stuff. If we did that in video, we'd have to go to Hollywood. Yeah. **Nathan Wrigley:** It ain't got the budget for that. How did that go? Because when we sat down, because Matt and I sat down at WordCamp US in Portland and you were talking about that becoming a thing. I think you'd even cast like voice actors and things like that at the time. So that's now shipped, isn't it? And you've done it. Yeah, we we have the first episode out. And this is the episode that **Matt Medeiros:** we're sort of using as the the carrot on the stick to get --- ### [AI Frustrations](https://share.snipd.com/snip/85e5323e-06ff-4947-8548-25082d2e995d) 🎧 09:08 - 10:12 (01:03) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/e27280d0-59d4-483d-ad6d-37b90c418124" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Nathan Wrigley's initial attempts at using AI for coding were frustrating and unsuccessful. - He found that even simple tasks failed, leading him to question his prompting skills and the tools' efficacy. #### 💬 Quote > I tried four things the other day on AI. How many of them do you think worked? And the response came back, all four. And I was like, no, it was none. > — Nathan Wrigley Nathan Wrigley recounting his failed attempts with AI coding. #### 📚 Transcript **Nathan Wrigley:** Yeah, that would be great. Okay, so it's Matt Medeiros. It's me. We're going to be talking about AI because everybody's talking about AI, but particularly in the WordPress space. So I'm going to lay my cards on the table, Matt. I'm a bit of a Luddite when it comes to AI. I haven't really explored it very much personally. So more or less everything that I have to say comes third hand. But the tiny forays that I've made into it have really frustrated me. And I found more or less nothing works. So I was at a meetup in London the other day, and I was sitting at the front and I said to the audience, I tried four things the other day on AI. How many of them do you think worked? And the response came back, all four. And I was like, no, it was none. None of the things that I tried worked. Absolutely nothing that I tried worked. And so that tells me, A, that I don't ask it the right things because I'm sure that the basic stuff that I was asking is in the realms of AI. But B, I haven't really played with it enough to learn that I was making those mistakes. You, on the other hand, you've like taken all your, you've --- ### [PulseWP Creation](https://share.snipd.com/snip/df530f6a-9583-4bd6-b990-ef901cd0ea2a) 🎧 10:17 - 11:52 (01:34) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/48f3c417-ade3-40a3-bb96-862be2448df1" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Matt Medeiros successfully built and launched PulseWP, an RSS reader/aggregator, using AI tools in about 40 hours. - The process involved many failures and experiments but ultimately gave him a sense of empowerment. #### 💬 Quote > [...] I recently put out an app [...] It was just a way for me to exercise the idea of building something with AI and largely solving a problem that I have every day [...] > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros explaining the motivation and process behind building PulseWP. #### 📚 Transcript **Nathan Wrigley:** You're like pro, pro super **Matt Medeiros:** pro ai person well nathan what you've forgotten is i sold cars for a lot of my life and i'm pretty good at selling the story okay so many many many many many hours of banging your head against the wall like uh i'm just a what i would say just a few paces ahead of you you know on this on this curve. But yes, I recently put out an app called an app. Let's call what it is. It's an RSS reader slash aggregator. You can find it at pulsewp.cc. And it was just a way for me to exercise the idea of building something with AI and largely solving a problem that I have every day, is how do I keep up with all the WordPress news, you know, but my way, right? You know, I have, I'm going to forget the name of the app that I have on my phone, net something that I use as an RSS reader and it scoops up everything. And I have my newsletters and I have obviously my Slack channels and that keeps a, that keeps a pulse on things for me. And I was like, there's some things I want to do. Like I want to be able to summarize these things quickly. I want to have like little social media messages automatically made for me for every new article so I can share these out. And then I started building it. And we can break down how I did that. But that's how it was born. It took 40-ish hours up until this point to do what I did. Oh! Lots of failing. Okay. Lots of experimenting. Does the 40 hours **Nathan Wrigley:** include the failing? Oh, yeah. --- ### [AI Coding Excitement](https://share.snipd.com/snip/acdc5d12-f675-4f13-932d-1b04f2ce9fa0) 🎧 12:21 - 13:42 (01:20) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/af05cd0d-137d-41c5-ac23-03173accf93e" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Matt Medeiros describes the thrill of building an app with AI as similar to his early experiences with PHP and Drupal. - He compares it to the feeling of empowerment he got from solving problems and building a business with WordPress. #### 💬 Quote > This AI stuff, it's like that same moment in time where it's like, wow, I just built this app. > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros on the excitement of building with AI. #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** So here's the biggest thing for me. And I hope, and I'm sure you can relate to this too, with your stint with Drupal way back in the day, CCK and views and all this stuff. Those moments were very powerful for me, right? When I installed my first PHP nuke bulletin board, I was like, whoa, this is awesome. Right? Like I put a lamp, like before I even knew the terminology, I put a lamp stack together. I install PHP bulletin board. I access it through a browser on another computer. Like this is amazing. Yeah. Right? Poking holes in the firewall and accessing it from your, you know, home server. Like this was amazing stuff. And then you learn Drupal and like the web and the technology and CCK and views makes you feel like a PHP developer. And you're like, wow, this is awesome. Fast forward WordPress. You have those same shining moments, 2008, 2009, where you're like, I'm solving problems for clients. charging money. I'm building a business. This AI stuff, it's like that same moment in time where it's like, wow, I just built this app. And it becomes this thing that you just constantly want to do. I will say a little bit of like, I'm not a gambler, but it feels like a little bit of gambling. Okay. Because every time you send it the prompt, you're like, is it going to get it? Is it going to get **Nathan Wrigley:** it? Is it going to get it? And then it gets it and you're like, yes. Yeah. Or at least it looks like it got it. **Matt Medeiros:** Right. It looks like it got it. So it feels like it --- ### [AI's Impact on Development](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e4b6b4ca-4141-4132-bfbb-417131ff5d1e) 🎧 19:27 - 21:08 (01:40) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/f629cb0a-79e7-48e9-999a-5590c2fac230" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - AI won't fully replace developers, but it will impact the job market and raise questions about app stores' future. - Individuals could generate custom software on demand, disrupting traditional business models. #### 💬 Quote > I think what it'll do is eventually [...] will we need an app store? > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros speculating about the potential consequences of AI-driven software development. #### 📚 Transcript **Nathan Wrigley:** And, you know, I would fast track the, like to **Matt Medeiros:** fast track the concept of, you know, if you open up your favorite social media platform, if you have one, and you look at, you know, discourse around AI right now, it's either this thing is replacing all of us or this thing is replacing none of us. Like everything else in my life anyway, I kind of see it somewhere in the middle. It's replacing half of us. Yeah, it's replacing half of us. See you later. One out of two of us on this call. Either that or half literally **Nathan Wrigley:** of us, one half of me and one half of you. **Matt Medeiros:** And, you know, these tools are great. They fast track it. But I think what it'll do is eventually, you know, will we need an app store? Right. You know, when you look at it from, I guess, maybe either a dystopian point of view is like, will you need an app store? you can just go on your iPhone, which is now somehow powered by Apple intelligence? Because the new colorful rainbow ring around my phone turns on instead of like the little Siri circle anymore. And will I just turn to my iPhone and say, give me an RSS app that follows just the WordPress news. And it makes basically what I made with Pulse and just installs it on my phone. And I pay Apple like nine bucks a month for Apple intelligence to maintain that app. What does that do to the landscape? But then also like as a developer, what does it do for humanity, right? You know, like do the developers go away in the AI? So there is all of these thoughts that are going through my mind as I'm building this stuff. I think it'll get better, but I don't think it's replacing all --- ### [AI Tool Recommendations](https://share.snipd.com/snip/391c38b4-8eff-4cc3-b72b-bd2b14fadf2e) 🎧 28:37 - 33:12 (04:35) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/55246a2e-bd3e-4ac7-b882-1452f88569d2" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Developers comfortable with code should explore Cursor to accelerate their abilities. - Non-developers can leverage Bolt or Replit, which provide more guided AI-powered app development experiences. #### 💬 Quote > If code, looking at code doesn't scare you, I would say use Cursor because it's, it's a coding app. > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros offering advice on choosing the right AI coding tools. #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** off the listener too much. Let's talk about the tools, right? How did I achieve some of this stuff? And let's talk about maybe some of the points where where you were having some challenges what did your workflow look like you were testing it out in chat gpt and **Nathan Wrigley:** just like copy and pasting into like a snippet plug-in yeah i mean basically something like that or into a sort of functions dot php file and like i said i was trying to do something really simple but my goal was just to see if i could get things done in under like two minutes. In other words, how would an inexperienced WordPress user manage with this? And the reason I said the whole thing collapsed is because for an inexperienced WordPress user, it was an endgame. It was like this should work. But no, it's destroyed my site. And that's what it did. It took the site to the white screen of death kind of thing. And I got the email notification. So I thought, OK, interesting if i was a novice coming into the wordpress space it would it would ruin my expectations of what wordpress could do but but let's flip that round again and ask you why why this particular topic why pulse wp i'll just give the url again pulse wp.cc i mean you said you were sort of scratching your own itch, but tell us why and how. **Matt Medeiros:** Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, I, yeah, I wanted a way to feed, yeah, that news and information for WordPress to the way that I need to consume it, which is, you know, like watch everything, summarize it so that I can quickly scan it and then go into the full article or, you know, whatever it might be that I'm watching for. And then quickly generate social media because I social media posts because I also share other people's content. So I wanted a tool that quickly allowed me to watch all the stuff, summarize it so I can quickly jump into the bullet points that I need to know about and then help me share it on social media because it's important to me. Like you, I started I had pneumonia. So maybe not like you, but I had pneumonia a few months after you and I met in Portland. And I was just laying on the couch, couldn't really do anything. And I was like, let me get into this AI coding thing. And I started to hit the limits of Claude at the time that that's what I was using. And it would just tell me like, Hey, you're trying to build this piece of software or whatever. Come back tomorrow. Literally, it say, come back at 4.30 tomorrow because you've ran, you've run out of tokens. And I'm like, like, and I go back to like that gamification, that gambling thing. Like, wait a minute, I'm like halfway through this idea. I need to continue to build it. And that's what, and then I started, what I started doing is I would have half the idea with ChatGPT and use the credits over there and then bring, and I would say, hey, take this little idea of this little feature, write the code for it, but then give me a prompt that explains how to build that code because I wanted Claude to build it. So then I would do a lot of ideation on ChatGPT to save credits and then make it write me a prompt, and then I would paste that into Claude. And that helped optimize the stack a little bit, right? And eventually, and we can get into this, eventually I started to uncover the cursor app Bolt.new, is a fantastic ai app and then what i eventually built pulse wp on is an app called replit which i like to say is like the elementor of ai coding like i think about everything encompassed that you need because pulse is well it's javascript it's you know the react app framework. It's a database. It's a user authentication system. It is the hosting provider. It does a lot. And once you start getting into this space, you realize, oh, it's not just the website that you need or that front-end component. Oh, no. You need the database. You need user authentication. User authentication is huge. And I should say that all of this built me a better recognition for WordPress, right? Like I look at WordPress now and you might go, oh, that thing's like 20 years old. It's old and monolithic. Yeah, but it's done. Yeah. Right. It's done. I can pick this up and put it on a website and thousands of humans care for it versus me on my couch and chat GPT. And it's just me and him building this thing and nobody else is caring for it. Nobody else is giving me ideas. It's a stark difference from building code by yourself without any knowledge versus you look at WordPress now and you go, wow, 20 years and thousands of people have touched And this is why it's better. Can I ask you a question? So you mentioned a variety of tools there. So you chat **Nathan Wrigley:** GPT, Claude, you mentioned Replit --- ### [AI Development Workflow](https://share.snipd.com/snip/76e6bb5d-98e4-47ec-9785-b53992b1f898) 🎧 40:17 - 41:54 (01:37) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/affe7221-6314-4d4a-b1c2-2c9a6c23aca4" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Start AI app development with ideation in ChatGPT, then prototype the UI/UX in Bolt. - For more serious projects, transfer the project to Replit, which excels at all-in-one development and hosting. #### 💬 Quote > Ideate in a vanilla chat GPT. Then I bring it to Bolt and I say, build me this idea. > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros sharing his preferred workflow for developing apps with AI. #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** built on. **Nathan Wrigley:** But what I've found **Matt Medeiros:** is what I will do, because you're still faced with the same, no matter what. If you're running Vanilla Chat GPT, your own account, if you're running Bolt or you're running Replit, you're still faced with the same issue, which is conversations get really complex. Right. Like as you extend it and keep working it, and that just starts to fail and give you a bunch of slop. Or it gets costly and you run out of tokens, right? So you start to, Replit has a different billing system, but we can talk about that later, but it still costs you money, and you still run out of that. So if you're not strategic about how you're building your app, then it can start to cost you money, or run out of credits altogether. But my favorite way of doing this is ideate in a vanilla chat GPT. Then I bring it to Bolt and I say, build me this idea. And I just let it, what Bolt is really good at is that MVP. Like, what does it look like? Do I like the buttons over here? Do I like this feature function? And then if I'm real serious about it, I will ask Bolt to, once I get it to a kind of working level, I'll say, hey, Bolt, everything you know about this app, can you make me a prompt that I'm going to place into another AI system? It feels a little bit like cheating, but it's like, hey, you did a really good job over here, but you know what? I'm not going to stick with you, but tell me everything you can do, and I'm going to bring it over into Replit, and then I'll start to build it in Replit. **Nathan Wrigley:** It's kind of like when you go into a store and look at an item and then in the **Matt Medeiros:** store buy it from Amazon. On your phone. Correct. That's 100%. That's 100%. --- ### [AI for Education](https://share.snipd.com/snip/145ccc25-f2e2-4693-ae7b-a061fa196c6b) 🎧 48:58 - 51:20 (02:21) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/146ba27e-fe46-43c7-81f7-c9a3adff03c5" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Matt used Bolt to create educational games for his son based on his homework, demonstrating AI's ease of use. - This showcases AI's potential to personalize learning and make game development accessible to anyone. #### 💬 Quote > I took a picture of his homework and I said, look at these words and make me a game, a guessing game for my six-year-old son [...] > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros sharing an anecdote about using AI to create a game for his son. #### 📚 Transcript **Nathan Wrigley:** yeah one **Matt Medeiros:** really cool thing it's not really an aside but it's sort of an aside. Like when you're thinking use case and even thinking outside of our little tech bubble, my, so another great thing about Bolt is it is pretty quick. And like I said, the UI is really nice. And where I found it to be really fun with kids is doing homework, right? With my kids, right? So my first grade son, my middle son, come home, they have their homework, there's whatever 12 words that they're working on for the week or whatever the homework is. And it's just, we're still writing on paper. The homework comes home, we're still using a pencil or a crayon to do this stuff. So trying to get him in a different mindset to learn these words, I like, hey man, how about we build a little game and if you can guess the right words we'll have a dinosaur pop up with a little sound effect and he was like yeah let's build it so I just literally take a picture I'm grabbing my phone take a picture of his homework and I say you know and I paste it into or I upload it to Bolt and I say, grab these 12 words. I mean, I was so lazy, Nathan. I didn't even write the words. Yeah. I took a picture. Yeah. And I said, look at these words and make me a game, a guessing game for my six year old son to guess these words. If he gets it right, it makes a little ding sound. If he gets it wrong, it makes a little wrong sound. And he has to guess the missing letter. And if he gets, whatever I said, 80% of it right, we'll have confetti and a dinosaur show up at the end. Right? Just a little fun game for him to play with. And it built it in whatever, two minutes. And in two minutes, I had a little video game for him to play. And then we added to it. So I said, okay, this video game is great. Let's make a flashcards. And it'll show the word for one second and then go away. And then you'll have four random, four that are random and the right word that my son has to pick from A, B, C, or D. And then it built that. we added to the video game a little menu system at the beginning and he could pick which game we could play and i started thinking to myself like oh i could extend this like you know i could make this a weekly thing i could have a login a top score chart i could do this with all of his brothers because we got two other boys and --- ### [Learn AI Fundamentals](https://share.snipd.com/snip/930f8bcd-1b7b-48bf-8678-bf33fd191df3) 🎧 53:38 - 57:14 (03:35) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/b20f3c0d-ac63-4a75-8541-7be7f9a14a35" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Learn AI fundamentals to stay ahead, even if you don't aim to build complex apps. - Understand how tools like ChatGPT, Claude, Replit, and Bolt differ and connect. #### 💬 Quote > Understand the fundamentals. Like when you used to crack open WordPress, you looked at HTML, CSS, and PHP, and you just looked at it. > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros emphasizing the importance of understanding AI fundamentals. #### 📚 Transcript **Nathan Wrigley:** I **Matt Medeiros:** want to add in a couple other tools here that I've used. And I think another great way that instead of us looking at it like, oh, my God, WordPress is doomed. I think there's some extensions that AI can help us with. So another tool that I use, especially with my children, is this tool called Whisper Flow. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called W-I Whisper Flow. You turn it on. I just turned it on. There's a little button you click, and you just speak. And it takes your words and puts it into text. It's very simple. But the key factor of Whisper, and I'm sure there's other tools that do this. This is the one that I found, is it will clean up your garbage vocabulary and all your filler words, just like we do with Descript. So if I turn it on and I go into Bolt or my chat GPT, I can just talk to it and be like, hey, so here's what I want to build. I want to build this app that does like a video game for my seven-year to learn. I can just talk ums and ahs and spacing and pauses. And then it just cleans it up and condenses it into the acute information that is needed. Right? So it doesn't have all the ums and the ahs. And then you just paste that into the prompt and you hit enter. And then it just takes your idea so I was letting my son my son do that you know and it's just because he's seven so uh he's just talking and he's well dad should I do this and yep tell it what you want and then it just cleans it up into like bullet point text all like the two minutes of him just like kind of like babbling and rambling and it just creates a prompt for him that's accurate and then we just hit enter and it builds it and i think you know tools like that just like you said these are going to be so common especially for you know for our kids as they grow up to like do this kind of thing but here's the extension i think that's super valuable that you can do with that you can do with WordPress or any system really. think about databases of important information, tax information, real estate information, land plots, forgetting the word for it right now, you know, stuff that's impactful in your local community, information that's hard to get out from like just like your local government, like who has access to what water filtration, all this stuff that's like stuck in millions of databases around the world. I'm building something now with Gravity Forms API, REST API. So Gravity Forms has REST API. If you're using Gravity Forms to store information on your site, I can turn to Bolt and say, build me an app that analyzes the data in this Gravity Forms form. Here's the API keys. Go build me a table of that data. And by the way, analyze it with ChatGPT and give me whatever, you know, whatever you think is the valuable information. Draw a graph, do all this stuff, hit enter, boom. Like it accesses data. And WordPress is a great data store. Like that's my future vision of WordPress when Matt many years ago said, operating system of the web. I can see WordPress as like a future just database of content. Open, accessible, build it your way. And then these AI tools can then go in and get this data and help us build robust solutions **Nathan Wrigley:** for whatever it is. Gosh, it sounds like, okay, so I --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts