# Evolution of a WordPress Agency  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: Evolution of a WordPress Agency - Show: The WP Minute+ - Owner / Host: Matt Medeiros - Guests: [Ross Johnson](https://share.snipd.com/person/77d2de20-2311-46c4-a793-878c4d02dab9) - Episode publish date: 2025-04-28 - Episode AI description: Ross Johnson, founder of 3.7 Designs, shares insights from nearly 20 years at the helm of his WordPress agency. He discusses the evolution of agency workflows from custom development to modern block-based builders, emphasizing the importance of experimentation for growth. Ross dives into the challenges of managing client expectations and scope creep, as well as the transition to retainer models for sustainability. The conversation also touches on the rise of AI in development and marketing, blending efficiency with the need for human creativity. - Duration: 48:30 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/78d605f9-f8e9-4f89-a3e3-4be2fe52e013) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/6da84b69-b825-4cef-9a81-24e1aeeb5c5d) - Export date: 2026-02-17T23:29:48 ## Snips ### [Redefining WordPress Professionalism](https://share.snipd.com/snip/868a9cff-47be-4156-ba40-b6e2987a5073) 🎧 07:56 - 08:57 (01:01) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/607ea7b9-ef40-40ef-9b63-b80036ed8d21" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Professionalism in WordPress work isn't defined solely by coding or using version control. - Delivering value consistently and showing up for clients is the true mark of a WordPress professional. #### 💬 Quote > In my opinion, if you're getting paid to deliver value through WordPress, like you're a WordPress professional, like you have some skills there. > — Ross Johnson Ross Johnson on what defines a WordPress professional #### 📚 Transcript **Ross Johnson:** Like I don't think we should exclude anybody based on, you know, a very specific skill set, especially if we're using terms as broad as like WordPress professional. Like in my opinion, like if you're getting paid to deliver value through WordPress, like you're a WordPress professional, like you have some skills there. It doesn't necessarily have to be that you're, but like a developer who writes code and uses version control. I mean, these days I don't do a lot of writing of code or using GitHub or version control, but I could still consider myself in many ways, WordPress professional, or even if you were to look at like, you know, people who have a WordPress plugin business, a lot of them are not developers who are using version control. Are still WordPress professionals? So I think if I had to guess as far as like why does that get picked out singularity, it might be that a lot of the evolution in WordPress might have started with developers. And so there is this sense that you're not really using the platform to its full extent if you're not kind of a certain level in the weeds of --- ### [Custom Means Hand-Coded Sites](https://share.snipd.com/snip/a7396d44-3993-49c0-8997-9147691405fb) 🎧 19:42 - 21:22 (01:40) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/5e5a00cb-fb3e-4bf6-bc03-14015553f9df" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Custom site building meant writing nearly everything in code, with minimal base themes. - This contrasts with current page builders that enable full custom sites using a visual interface without sacrificing development. #### 💬 Quote > What custom meant to us is...very bare bones theme...and then...custom blocks...almost everything was done in code. > — Ross Johnson Ross Johnson explaining traditional custom development vs. visual builders #### 📚 Transcript **Ross Johnson:** no, that's a very important distinction because you can build completely custom websites using Elementor or any of these page builders. Like that's what's great about them is they don't really do a whole lot of restricting of what you're building. You're not starting from something and trying to iterate on top of it. So what custom meant to us is, yeah, we had this like very bare bones theme based on underscores. So you install it and there's, you know, colors, barely any typography, no layout, nothing. And then on top of that, we had kind of our own set of custom WordPress blocks, including like some extensions to some of the existing blocks. So like we'd add certain settings to like the columns and group blocks, stuff like that. But, you know, essentially we're looking at a blank page and rather than, you know, configuring and building the front end of the site through the admin, like you would with a page builder, we're writing everything custom, you know, like custom template files and HTML and custom CSS to build all these layouts and in the front end. So almost everything was done in code, almost nothing, not almost nothing over time, like more and more got to be done in the browser because we're using blocks. But a vast majority of it was actually writing code versus using a user interface. And I don't think using a user interface means you're not a developer. I mean, it might not, it might mean you're not like a computer, like a software engineer, but I still think you're like, you're developing a website, you're building it. Yeah. **Matt Medeiros:** What did that mean? What are the custom side? What, what else was the expense of the, of the custom side? Was it, was it just writing the code custom every time the customer had the request? We realized, man, we're way over budget with this internally. --- ### [Custom Development Overruns](https://share.snipd.com/snip/1d07b577-e00b-454c-b25c-d8ca6afbfae8) 🎧 24:09 - 24:27 (00:18) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/fe0844ab-bf49-45e8-aca6-f54de630ab02" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - 3.7 Designs often went hundreds of hours over budget fixing issues in custom development. - This costly inefficiency motivated their shift toward block-based builders and off-the-shelf solutions. #### 💬 Quote > There were times we'd be hundreds of hours over...we kind of had to spend some time analyzing, what is contributing to this. > — Ross Johnson Ross Johnson recounting budget overruns in custom projects #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** we've done it before in the past and these are the things that we can do with it but as soon as you try to like break that either with scope creep or you're like cool new features that we can build for this it has to be custom and now custom is, you know, maybe where you were at before, but like 20%, 30% more on the --- ### [Custom Work Narrows With Builders](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0f82d38e-e547-4a48-9c8b-302b18bb414b) 🎧 24:40 - 25:57 (01:16) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/7778eac5-1aeb-457d-ab56-a1cae0af0926" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - 3.7 Designs still handles custom development for clients with specific needs beyond off-the-shelf solutions. - Custom work now focuses on narrower, more precise features integrated with block-based page builders. #### 💬 Quote > So that's something we're going to build custom. And most of our projects, there's something like that, but it's going to be, yeah, that much more narrow window. > — Ross Johnson Ross Johnson on custom WordPress development in a builder workflow #### 📚 Transcript **Ross Johnson:** Yeah. That is exactly our expectation. I mean, the type of projects that we take on, usually there is some custom development that's needed, like from a backend logic perspective, like we're working on a project now that needs like a very particular membership management workflow that like WooCommerce memberships isn't a good fit. Some of the other ones that we're looking at, like it just has to work exactly how they need it. So that's something we're going to build custom. And most of our projects, there's something like that, but it's going to be, yeah, that much more narrow window. And because we are still thinking we're going to do like a block-based page builder, we do expect to have like custom blocks here and there. Like we'll still need to design something that doesn't fit in like the off-the you know, block-based page builders that are out there. But the real opportunity that we're looking at as far as opening up for us is being able to sell more marketing services. So in like 2018, we became more of like a full-service digital marketing agency, which was like really transformational for the agency because we stopped chasing like the one big ticket projects and started chasing retainers. And as far as like scaling an agency, predictable revenue is so important. So because we can spend less upfront on the website, then we can pitch them on, okay, let's spend some additional money on giving the right people to your site, driving leads, driving conversions. --- ### [Use Discovery to Control Scope](https://share.snipd.com/snip/bde12628-6507-41c7-8998-a5811586b31d) 🎧 27:58 - 28:28 (00:29) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/e08514a4-eba8-4eed-aa9f-1ee0f4395a1a" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Use discovery-first projects to clarify scope and reduce guessing in proposals. - This approach leads to clearer pricing and less risk of going over budget for clients and agency. #### 💬 Quote > We're kind of breaking off that first portion of the discovery of the strategy, and sometimes all the way through the design concepts...quote for the rest, which gives the client typically a better solution. > — Ross Johnson Ross Johnson on discovery-first projects for better client outcomes #### 📚 Transcript **Ross Johnson:** Like there's just not enough time, the typical sales process to get all the details right. So we're kind of breaking off that first portion of the discovery of the strategy, and sometimes all the way through the design concepts. So we have a very clear picture of what we're building. We'll do functional specifications and that sort of thing if there's any custom logic that's needed. And then quote for the rest, which gives the client typically a better solution. You don't have to pad the price as much. You have as much issues as running over. And that's been working really well for both us and our clients. --- ### [Necessity of Recurring Revenue](https://share.snipd.com/snip/86dc489c-d59d-4ec8-8f27-ede2cad199e1) 🎧 29:21 - 30:34 (01:12) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/1feaaa10-cfea-4326-ae1f-2bf7100e01a1" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Agencies need predictable recurring revenue to survive and scale with a team. - Chasing one big project at a time risks financial instability and stresses agency sustainability. #### 💬 Quote > I think you're really going to struggle to scale your agency and have a team on payroll if you don't have recurring revenue. > — Ross Johnson Ross Johnson discussing agency sustainability and recurring revenue #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** November, December. You're just like, you're operating at the halfway point. This is how I was. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe that's why I couldn't sustain, you know, the size team that I had. You know, you're halfway through the summer. You're like, okay, how are we, what are we projecting for holiday season? Right. For that downtime of like no projects and no revenue in, you start selling for the next year, right? So you start selling for, okay, as soon as we come back from holiday season, who's giving us, you know, the down payments on the new projects, you know, slated to go, you know, the next year. And, you know, that was a super stressful cycle. I'm sure it still is a stressful cycle for people. And that's why that recurring revenue is oh so important and sometimes it can be like gamified i think is the is is is a word that i might throw out there like everyone's like you got to get that recurring revenue by my 97 a month course that's how you how to do it and you're just like okay what am i doing like but there's like a vital reason for it you know yeah i don't know that makes any sense or was like a bit of a soapbox moment, but like, it's a tough thing to like make people understand. **Ross Johnson:** Yeah, absolutely. I think you're really going to struggle to scale your agency and have a team on payroll. --- ### [Beyond Basic Retainer Services](https://share.snipd.com/snip/31aec420-2cdd-4074-af2d-49e26969c854) 🎧 31:18 - 31:40 (00:21) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/c35b0882-181e-4d38-90eb-dd93ea8370fb" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Start with site care and maintenance retainer services, but don't stop there. - Aim to offer higher value monthly services that provide real client ROI for sustainable agency growth. #### 💬 Quote > If you look at the prices of those, like maybe you might charge a hundred couple dollars and that's maybe on the high end. Like how many clients do you have to get at that price point to hire like one person to manage it for you? > — Ross Johnson Ross Johnson on the limitations of site care retainer revenue #### 📚 Transcript **Ross Johnson:** Like start there. But if you look at the prices of those, like maybe you might charge a couple dollars and that's maybe on the high end. Like how many clients do you have to get at that price point to hire like one person to manage it for you? It's a lot. So you need to be thinking about higher value services that clients are going to pay and get ROI on every month. That's --- ### [Leverage Referrals and Partnerships](https://share.snipd.com/snip/058e8a47-2f8a-4603-9e85-8a0f1811eb66) 🎧 32:29 - 33:56 (01:26) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/ce00f230-23a5-487a-a6c5-abf62731f178" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Build a strong referral and strategic partnership network to find agency clients. - Outbound sales may be necessary if inbound interest slows, instead of waiting passively. #### 💬 Quote > We've gotten a ton of work just sustained based on people I've met like 10 years ago...If that's not working, I think you really have to start hustling... > — Ross Johnson Ross Johnson on customer acquisition strategies #### 📚 Transcript **Ross Johnson:** And I think it's, it's gotten harder over the years. Like we did a whole lot of local business, like outside of referrals, a lot of our business was local for a long time, basically up until COVID. And then it seemed like once COVID hit and everyone went virtual, there was kind of this universal shift in thinking where it's like, we don't need to work local anymore because we're not even going to meet you in person. And it seemed like that hasn't really changed much. So for us, we've been fortunate that our referral network is really strong. Strategic have always been really huge for us. So finding other agencies or services that complement yours and referring work back and forth, that's a good way to get your foot in the door with a lot of work. And then just having a really strong network in general, which might be easier or harder these days. But the more people you know virtually or in person, the more likely they are to know somebody who needs help. so we've gotten a ton of work just sustained based on people i've met like 10 years ago 15 years ago that are still connected with me on linkedin and they see me post now and again so they have a project come up and they think of us the other way you can go about it in talking to other agency owners is really just focus on a lot of outbound sales. Like, you know, we're more waiting for clients to reach out and come to us. You know, we do some proactive marketing, but, you know, we're not doing cold outreach. We're not doing a lot of trying to connect with people and discuss their issues. --- ### [AI as a Force Multiplier](https://share.snipd.com/snip/974c31ca-b358-49b5-8207-8e03dac6ba85) 🎧 34:50 - 36:04 (01:14) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/0bb28f2d-f070-4d08-b74f-dfc3049f8ce6" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - AI currently acts as a force multiplier, improving efficiency in code writing and marketing tasks. - Full automation is not here yet; human skill remains necessary to guide AI effectively. #### 💬 Quote > I don't see it replacing anybody quite yet...It's a force multiplier like the places we are using it it's speeding things up quite a bit. > — Ross Johnson Ross Johnson on the role of AI in agency workflows #### 📚 Transcript **Ross Johnson:** we're definitely incorporating it in our business for efficiencies, like you said, like where we just started using a code editor that has AI built into it. Certainly all the marketing activities that we do, we'll do a lot of AI to help speed that up, like research and idea generation, that sort of thing. And yeah, I think a good number of our clients use AI also. I mean, we typically work with marketing departments. So like our client is like a marketing manager or a marketing leader, and they're pretty clued into AI as well. So they're using it kind of in similar ways that we are. You know, as far as, you know, where we are now, where we might go, like the way I see it in the next maybe year or so is, like you said, there's a lot of efficiencies to be gained. Basically, the people who figure out how to leverage AI the best are going to benefit the most from it. Like, I don't see it replacing anybody quite yet. Where it goes long term, I'm not exactly sure. Because like in theory, it's going to get to a point where it can build, design, write all the copy, a website for you, you know, pretty much do everything. But if it's doing that for everybody, then what makes the difference between website A and B? And that's not exactly sure how that shakes out. It seems like there still would need to be some humans in there working with it to --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts