# Is Open Source Overused?  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: Is Open Source Overused? - Show: The WP Minute+ - Owner / Host: Matt Medeiros - Episode publish date: 2025-02-13 - Episode AI description: The podcast dives into the overuse and misinterpretation of 'open source,' especially within WordPress. It discusses the nuanced differences between open source code and brand value, alongside the evolving dynamics of WordPress governance. Concerns are raised about Matt Mullenweg's control and the growing appeal of closed-source alternatives. The conversation questions whether society is transitioning toward proprietary solutions, influenced by real-world business needs and the sustainability challenges of open-source models. - Duration: 01:00:25 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/ace47e71-b755-47fd-b2df-8eec4a702975) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/6da84b69-b825-4cef-9a81-24e1aeeb5c5d) - Export date: 2026-02-17T23:32:21 ## Snips ### [Open Source Misinterpretation](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5cfe9f00-a1a5-4b4b-9efd-a18a34336c65) 🎧 02:59 - 03:34 (00:34) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/1454b100-af42-4d38-99c1-4c007a91b8d0" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The term "open source" is overused and misinterpreted, especially in WordPress. - People conflate open-source code with brand ownership, diluting the term's meaning. #### 💬 Quote > I hear this word open source so much. It has value, but I just feel like it's one of those things that have been almost like the concept of searching for something on the internet has become now Googled. > — Mark Zemanski Mark Zemanski on the overuse of the term "open source". #### 📚 Transcript **Mark Zemanski:** It has value, but I just feel like it's one of those things that have been almost like the concept of searching for something on the internet has become now Googled. It's almost like you just say it and you think it means something, but it itself doesn't really mean the thing that you're talking about, but you've attached to these other pieces to it. And I'm not saying that open source is bad. That's not what I'm saying with this. I just think that we just throw it around at this point. And I feel like there's way more things underneath it that we've literally seen in WordPress now when we kept saying like open source, open source, open source. But it's --- ### [Open Source Red Flag](https://share.snipd.com/snip/cee63b22-225b-4d69-87bf-a7679bc82560) 🎧 04:31 - 04:58 (00:26) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/33779ef0-28e7-4d74-a5de-51f17d45761e" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Open source is often misinterpreted as free software with community contribution opportunities. - Chris Pearson believes the "free" aspect is most legitimate, while community involvement is not essential for success. #### 💬 Quote > Open source to me is a huge red flag. [...] Open source means two things to people at large. Number one, it means free. Number two, it means a community where I can contribute and feel welcome. > — Chris Pearson Chris Pearson's perspective on open source. #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** All right. That's a great question. Open source to me is a huge red flag. All right. Open source means two things to people at large. Number one, it means free. Number two, it means a community where I can contribute and feel welcome. I think the free part of it is the most legitimate part of it. I think the other one is something that people want to believe and want to feel good about, but I do not think is a necessary component in success. I'll --- ### [Pearson's Paradox](https://share.snipd.com/snip/5c994898-ecea-490a-8e18-1f9e9a94498b) 🎧 05:42 - 06:58 (01:15) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/21a0259f-e286-4c3d-9d75-3e02fb7d6651" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Chris Pearson built a successful business (Thesis) using WordPress's open-source nature. - Matt Medeiros questions Pearson's criticism of open source given his own success derived from it. #### 💬 Quote > The thing that gets me with Pearson [...] is on one hand he's building success off of the back of an open source project, but at the same time saying that open source is a big red flag. > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros on Chris Pearson's contradictory stance on open source. #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** I think, and I did get into a bit of a debate with Chris on that podcast episode, because I called in and sort of talked to about this open source thing. The that gets me, well, let me start with this. The thing that gets me with Pearson, especially in the context of your episode, is on one hand he's building success off of the back of an open source project, at the same time saying that open source is a big red flag. I've seen and heard this across our space for a while now, and it's not something I can really wrap my head around. Because I look at that and go, well, don't you see the benefits of open source? I'm not saying you necessarily have to agree with everything in it or pull all the levers in it, which we'll break down in a moment, but can't you see the driving success that at least WordPress has had for the last 20 years? Maybe we're coming to a head of all that stuff, but still, if you launch Thesis, one of the most popular premium themes many years ago, and printed, I don't know, using his words, I think, millions of dollars, eight million of dollars, man, don't you see the success in that? And I --- ### [Open Source Nuances](https://share.snipd.com/snip/7ce10742-c0b7-45f6-81db-8565d8155214) 🎧 07:10 - 09:00 (01:50) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/01d2156e-cd50-46df-abf1-464d1c59f113" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Open source is often perceived as free and community-driven, but licensing adds nuance. - The concept of "open source" is often simplified, ignoring the complexities of licenses and contribution guidelines. #### 💬 Quote > Open source until it gets to a point where it's not your type of open source anymore is one of the themes that I've seen. > — Mark Zemanski Mark Zemanski discussing the evolving interpretation of open source. #### 📚 Transcript **Mark Zemanski:** quite honestly yeah I mean I I think that using that as the example and we you know we we had that, I thought there was a lot of interesting topics that brought up there. And the way that Chris kind of defines open source is, I think he says in there, it's free. And I tried to understand it because it was kind of hard to understand the exact way that he described it. And he was talking about his platform and how it would be and all that sort of stuff. I don't know. Here's where my mind goes with this type of stuff. It's like open source until it gets to a point where it's not your type of open source anymore is one of the themes that I've seen. I think we kind of see that in WordPress a little bit. Like, you know, now that it's getting to a point where WordPress is just the biggest one that we can kind of pull from. And I'm not as extremely experienced with a Drupal or anything else that are like this. You could probably tell me more there. I just think that at a certain point, it becomes where it was a free software that everyone loved. And in the run-up, it's incredibly beneficial to everyone for it to be open source and again i'm saying the word open source and in my mind i'm like that's not what open source means it's open source just doesn't open source at the end of the day just means that the code is everybody can see the code and like does it inherently mean that you can contribute to it or no uh **Matt Medeiros:** because **Mark Zemanski:** don't we get into like license territory and licenses are different yes **Matt Medeiros:** but **Mark Zemanski:** this is kind of what i'm talking about though is like we say the word open source and like isn't there normally like a license attached to it and i understand people are just talking you know trying to get their points across quickly but anytime i hear that i'm like it's it's more nuanced than that you love that word **Matt Medeiros:** i --- ### [Supporting vs. Building WordPress](https://share.snipd.com/snip/11a90793-c8ab-4be5-8a83-5fb92c04c5fe) 🎧 11:19 - 12:36 (01:16) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/542c40e8-84b4-4265-8655-7af4c88f144b" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Matt Medeiros views his role in WordPress as supportive rather than building. - Some contributors feel unheard, while others appreciate the opportunity to contribute even without full control. #### 💬 Quote > I never felt like I was a part of building WordPress. I always felt like I was a part of supporting WordPress, if that makes sense. > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros's perspective on his role in the WordPress community. #### 📚 Transcript **Mark Zemanski:** where I'm going with that, where I'm thinking when you say all that is like, what, uh, 10 years ago, did you feel like from a top down perspective of like WordPress, did you feel like it was more, we are building this together. It's all of us in this together. We're going in a direction that almost everybody wants. Like everybody has a say and everything like that. Contrast that. I'm assuming I know the answer to that question. What is the answer to that question? It's **Matt Medeiros:** nuanced, but I've never felt like it was, I never felt, personally never felt like I was a part of building WordPress. I always felt like I was a part of supporting WordPress, if that makes sense. Like I knew it would have its issues, you know, but at the same time, like I was there for the mission of, you know, that's how I've always approached it. I felt like it was a me thing or I never said myself shoulder to shoulder with these other developers and said, we, I'm much more like, you guys are doing a great job. Let me help you. Let me help you get this to the finish line with what I can do. Which --- ### [Clear Guidelines Preferred](https://share.snipd.com/snip/300c1ea4-46e2-458b-b58b-6b38fcfc223e) 🎧 15:09 - 16:30 (01:20) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/58124d20-5300-4cac-9f11-f086fc2b7153" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - People prefer clear guidelines over ambiguous ones, even if restrictive. - Mark Zemanski observes that many users would rather have explicit rules than unclear contribution processes. #### 💬 Quote > The middle ground is always weird where it's like you feel like you have a say, but then you don't end up actually having one. And now you're just confused. > — Mark Zemanski Mark Zemanski on the preference for clear guidelines in open source projects. #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** i rarely the glass half full kind of person but in this case i am because i just look at the alternative which is absolutely zero say, right, in anything, you know? The one thing I would say that, I don't want to interrupt you with that, but I think it's **Mark Zemanski:** a really important point. The one thing is that I do kind of feel like whether it was explicit or not, or it has been explicit or not, maybe it's just like the stuff that I consume. you rather have like a complete uh i don't know what an ex like complete like dictatorial approach where like you absolutely know that you have no say versus the other end of the spectrum where you it's like almost anarchy like you can kind of do whatever you want like you have all the say i don't know whatever but like there's a middle ground like the middle ground is always weird where it's like you feel like you have a say, but then you don't end up actually having one. And now you're just confused. I'm not saying that's exactly where we're at. I'm just saying that I feel like most of the time people would rather be told exactly what the rules are rather than the rules being so obfuscated and gray. And again, it's a difficult thing. I'm not saying these are easy problems. I'm just kind of giving you my perspective on it because I'm trying to be a little bit of the mouthpiece for the things that I hear and see and all that sort of stuff, just from the people that I associate with. So that's --- ### [Brand Value vs. Open Source Code](https://share.snipd.com/snip/96c597e0-0328-498f-85b9-e0a0a69f61e0) 🎧 21:42 - 23:25 (01:42) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/5d483f3a-7643-4c9a-9fee-5f052f178bf0" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The WordPress brand holds significant value, distinct from the open-source code. - Matt Mullenweg's control over the brand adds complexity to discussions about ownership and contribution. #### 💬 Quote > The brand itself is where the value is. And Matt Mullenwig, unless I'm getting something wrong, like owns that and controls that brand. > — Mark Zemanski Mark Zemanski distinguishing between the value of the WordPress brand and the open-source code. #### 📚 Transcript **Mark Zemanski:** The thing I would say is like, do you believe that the word open source, when you hear it in the wild, is often like, when I said overused and misinterpreted, I meant because so many people like use it as kind of a buzzword. It's a real word. It means something. But I just feel like people are attaching more things to it than what it actually means, particularly in the context of WordPress, because really I was going to tweet this out too. we could have a discussion about it here because it's pertinent. I was going to tweet something out like, you know, we were having a chat. I think there's a thread in the WP Minute Slack. And I was thinking in my mind, the thing that was coming to my mind as I was putting all those pieces together is the revelation that there's WordPress, like the brand of WordPress that really everyone knows, like that's the real value of the name and like what the platform is. And then there's all the code certainly. But those are two different things. It's like the code is open source. Like you could take WordPress and go do it, but the brand it's, but you have to rename it, right? Like you wouldn't be able to just keep it. The brand itself is where the value is. And Matt Mullenwig, unless I'm getting something wrong, like owns that and controls that brand. So like, that's where the actual value is mostly like, obviously the code is valuable. Like I'm trying to downplay the contribution of all the people making this, making the code, but I'm saying that those are two very different things. And we are now in this, I feel like we're in this weird spot where people are saying open source and they're attaching these, these weird, like brand attributes to it and whatever they're making, you know, like whatever the, the conclusions are drawing. And that's just not, that's not a one-to it's like, yeah, the code's open source, but it's Matt Mullenwigs thing. And I just feel like that's not, I'm not even saying that's wrong. I'm just --- ### [False Democratic Hope](https://share.snipd.com/snip/6ef57198-ba82-4e19-aa90-0f68f0d57740) 🎧 29:04 - 30:18 (01:14) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/acb135d3-32de-43ae-8aa3-13372989adaa" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - WordPress's democratic structure created a sense of ownership, but control ultimately resided with Matt Mullenweg. - This led to disillusionment for some contributors who felt their say was limited. #### 💬 Quote > - It was kind of built like to have this democratic apparatus behind it. But [...] we were kind of like, all right, we all know Matt pulls the strings behind the scene. > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros discussing the perceived democratic structure of WordPress. #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** Plus, I think, I want to say, again, I'm really a half glass full kind of guy. loose structure built to have the democratic uh apparatus of wordpress right for better for much more for worse right so it was kind of built but it didn't really you know it was it was kind of built like to have this democratic apparatus behind it. But, you know, for years before all of this stuff, we were kind of like, all right, we all know Matt pulls the strings behind the scene. So, I don't know, it was kind of good that that was there, but also kind of bad because it led us, it led a whole bunch of people down this direction that they thought they had this ownership and this say, but they truly didn't. Right. On one hand, I'm like, it's kind of cool that it was there. But on the other hand, it's like, eh, it was a lot of false hope. So I totally get it. Um, you know, I get your point of view on that stuff. Are you --- ### [The Value of Open Source](https://share.snipd.com/snip/0c281d3f-eb00-4a2e-a1a6-eeacc46abedc) 🎧 34:49 - 38:17 (03:27) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/b3ce04f8-a322-4601-a23c-4f776a617113" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Open source remains valuable, challenging the status quo and fostering competition. - Matt Medeiros emphasizes the importance of open source in driving innovation and balancing closed-source alternatives. #### 💬 Quote > - The idea of that just existing challenges the status quo. [...] WordPress challenges any closed source CMS. > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros on the role of open source in challenging established systems. #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** I also think there is open source. Things can be open source, and I think we're going to see this really get pushed because of AI coming up. If I'm starting to build little software solutions, and by the way, open source doesn't always have to be, like, software. If I'm starting to build out these little software solutions and I want to open source it, it's this tiny little thing that does one. Like, just, like, plugins. Any kind of tiny little plugin that's uploaded to WordPress.org, your favorite, most basic WordPress plugin that does this cool little utility thing that you can't live without is open source. And it doesn't need to be maintained by a thousand people and have the meetings in this apparatus that we've had with WordPress because it just doesn't need it, does not require it. So I think looking at open source and what I don't want to do, here's what I'm trying to get at. What I don't want to do is to beat up on open source as a bad thing because of what has happened in WordPress. Right. Because I, I, yeah, it's just the same thing. Like I have the debate with like Kevin and others, not just Kevin. Don't let video take over podcasting because then we start to push out the essence of free and open publishing. I say the same thing about open source. I'm not this crazy open source. We've talked about it. I'm not running graphene OS on my phone. I'm not using a Linux computer like I used to do back in the day. And by the way, neither is Matt. He's running iOS and he's talked about, Matt Mullen, he's talked about this. He's still using Apple, which is closed source. You can't just be like 100% consumed by it. But the idea of that just existing challenges the status quo. DeepSeek, open source, challenged open AI. WordPress challenges any closed source CMS. And these things help balance. There's a balance there. Like the swing of the pendulum going side to side. And sometimes it's really good for WordPress. Sometimes it's really bad for WordPress. And I think the existence of this stuff challenges that status quo. And the one other thing I want to, I want to remark on is before I forget is keys to the kingdom. Oh my God. There is like, I think, you know, for everyone like saying the, the, I know it's so hard to say these days, so don't come after me. But, you know, like for all of the criticism you want to give Mullenweg and WordPress, it still remains free and open source. You can still take it. Walk down the street and charge somebody $10,000 to put a WordPress website together for you. $100,000. You can still profit off of this open source thing. So as much as you want to criticize it and beat up, you know, Mullenweg and the decisions, some of them rightfully so, and the challenges of this stuff, you can still take from WordPress. You can still have a career off of WordPress. So that's why I say you can still take from it, but don't beat up on it. Again, Pearson from your podcast episode makes absolutely no sense to me. Build --- ### [Closed Source Winning?](https://share.snipd.com/snip/29305351-7574-4a19-91cc-2b2526b050fc) 🎧 38:43 - 43:00 (04:17) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/96112644-2673-47f0-8772-100b754c94e5" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Closed-source SaaS products often offer better responsiveness to feature requests than open-source projects. - Mark Zemanski questions whether society is shifting towards closed-source solutions due to their perceived efficiency. #### 💬 Quote > - When I want something changed in those platforms, I either go to the feature request or I find the person that actually makes that change and I tell them and it's like normally pretty fast [...]. And I did that for Restream and it worked. > — Mark Zemanski Mark Zemanski comparing his experience with feature requests in closed-source vs. open-source platforms. #### 📚 Transcript **Mark Zemanski:** I mean I I think that I would when I hear you say beat up on WordPress I would need to know like almost specifics on what you mean like what is your definition of beat up because i just maybe this is maybe this is a thing that i and other people do i just feel like criticism is valid in a lot of ways especially the way it's delivered like i feel like a lot of times when i'm saying things i'm just like observing and i'm being like hmm i'm asking almost like asking a question like i wonder why they did it like that or i think there might be a better way to do that and they're people are free to not take like that into consideration sure it's not my thing. I don't, whatever. But at the same time, I just feel like there's another angle of that. What you said there were people are utilizing WordPress and they are charging somebody money for that. And they're doing it in a sense of they, they feel like that's the best decision for their business and then you know xyz happens new update happens whatever and it like is just totally kind of like against with it i don't know i i don't know and i mean it kind of goes back to the yin and yang thing i think you were talking about like with like closed source versus open source. And I'm really not 100% like, I'm feeling that, but I would need to think about that more because it feels like a lot of stuff is closed source. And there's not, it feels like open source is kind of, from my macro lens of just the things that I watch, it seems like closed source is winning a lot from what I've seen. If you see all of the website alternative things that I see, a lot of them are closed I don't know. You'd have to **Matt Medeiros:** define what winning means because WordPress still has a massive. I **Mark Zemanski:** don't mean winning in like an absolute. I mean like winning as far as if you look at WordPress versus like these other ones. Like just as like WordPress or the alternatives. And then you see the alternatives and a lot of them are like the Wix, Squarespace, Shopify, that type Webflow type thing. So I just, this is, again, I've talked about this. This is a societal thing I feel like we're just becoming way less willing to have open source and you are a literal living testament to you have to fight for it pretty much and I don't know if people really want to fight for it I think that they just want to have the thing that they want and I'll tell you this much I'll tell you this much too okay because this is a different angle of this whole conversation, but it's very relevant. Let me compare and contrast two things. When I want a new feature in WordPress, or when I think of, I have that conversation, I would have to go into GitHub and make a ticket or whatever, and I don't do that nearly enough, maybe I guess as I'm supposed to or whatever. Okay, fine, fair. But I'm making like WordPress videos and all that sort of stuff. I use SaaS products that are closed source, you know, just like the things that you use, right? StreamYard, Restream, like whatever, right? When I want something changed in those platforms, I either go to the feature request or I find the person that actually makes that change and I tell them and it's like normally pretty fast because I'm not like saying some weird niche thing. It's normally something like, hey, this is kind of like a very normal feature that needs to be in here. And if you guys want to compete with these other people, I don't understand why I can't move things around on my streaming setup like I would. And I did that for Restream and it worked. So maybe you're going to tell me just go throw it in GitHub, but I just feel like that dichotomy there, at least in my personal experience, has been very different, I feel like, in one avenue. And then psychologically, societally, are we more, are we just becoming more of like a closed source capital money type system where like these people are paying us. We're going to listen to them from like the, from the brand perspective versus this is an open source project. We're going to do whatever the hell we want. We'll consider what you want, but ultimately we have our own things that we're trying to do here, da, da, da, whatever. You have --- ### [Fighting for Open Source](https://share.snipd.com/snip/9697731d-183c-4245-ae96-c5d94107aa34) 🎧 43:07 - 48:17 (05:09) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/6f8d7bfe-283e-4675-99bb-9e441751762b" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Advocating for open source requires active effort, as seen with WordPress and Matt Mullenweg. - Matt Medeiros believes that community advocacy has significantly contributed to WordPress's success. #### 💬 Quote > - You have to fight for this open source thing and that's why [...] i don't give up on it because the more you push it away [...] we've definitely seen some of these these glacial moves over the last few months where you really start to feel threatened by it. > — Matt Medeiros Matt Medeiros on the need to actively support open source. #### 📚 Transcript **Matt Medeiros:** Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, the challenge, yes, 100% you are correct. Probably the most phenomenal thing I've ever heard you say. Wow. That you have to fight. Clip it. Right? Like, you have to fight for this open source thing and that's why this is why i don't i don't give up on it because the more you push it away um and wordpress still has a long way to fall trust me uh yeah but we've never you know we've definitely seen some of these these glacial moves over the last few months where you really start to feel threatened by it. But yes, you must fight. And I also believe that to some degree, I know the haters are going to come out, that Matt is also thinking of, is fighting for it right now, fighting for his business automatic to stay relevant. Pour one out if I wasn't in my office, pour one out for Brian Kords, right? fighting for his his business to stay relevant because he does see himself sees automatic as the only champion for wordpress whether you agree with that statement or not i think that he believes automatic is the only champion and rightfully so with the amount of hours that he's in money that he's put into it um and he does want to defend that i too want to defend it not because i want it, because I want to be able to tell WordPress what to do. I want to have a say. It's cool. But I also want it to survive because I think it's a great app that humans should want, you know, want from freedom of publishing. So, yes, fight for it, for open source. Fight for open publishing and the open web technically um so there's that um you know the the the other stuff about you know contributing and giving back like yeah we have it's an imperfect system it's an imperfect system how many times have you called up you know, the paying corporate company, that's Xfinity, right? Your cable provider, if you have that in your area. And you're like, I got a problem with my bill. Okay. Let me push you over here. You talked to this next person. I got a problem with my bill. I was not in this department. Let me push you over to this department. And you're just like, God damn, like, I just want to get this thing solved. Right. There is just an imperfect system that we have with WordPress, but a system nonetheless which also you know it contributes to its issues right like go put it in github i get it don't like it but that's the system we have not saying it's perfect and yeah it takes one person from the from the github aisle to reach across to the normie aisle and say hey what do you need? You know, but then sometimes you have to go into the GitHub and go, what is an issue? OK, I'll draft it and create it. I'll provide screenshots. There's a little bit of give and take. And that has certainly been an issue for WordPress. But also, again, as you watch the two camps collide, hardcore developers that get this stuff, average users who are trying to make a living with it. And it has caused, you know, it's caused this rift over time. And again, it's just not perfect. And that's where we've, that's how we've come to this past, at least on the communication side. Because I've always felt like no one's ever listened to me either. Right? Which is why I started a podcast to talk about this stuff from the business perspective. And I think that a lot of folks don't feel heard and can't make progress in this space. But at least the space exists. You know, it doesn't, it makes sense in my head. It's, you know, when I say it, it's like we could have nothing. And on the commercial side, like you say, like commercial side is winning. Yeah, I mean, maybe on like a feature set level, but you would also say that Wix and Squarespace or Webflow are not as big as WordPress because, not just because of the dollars, but because there aren't people behind that machine pushing it forward. So it's like, it is a testament to the WordPress community that has pushed WordPress so far in its adoption. because there are people who do care who say nope I'm going to start a web agency and I'm going to advocate for WordPress whether or not they even think of it that way I think that that is something that has has really helped WordPress and that's something that definitely lacks in seeing because you know he's got his lane and he's seeing it from his perspective he's forgetting that there are thousands of people who are like cool man I'm not even I don't even want to contribute I just want to help this cool product people use it just want to have people use it um and that's a huge reason why WordPress has been successful is folks like you and me who have advocated for it again whether or not you're thinking of it active like i'm an activist for this thing i'm like hey this thing's pretty cool let's use it and it's free it's this open source thing and a bunch of people use it it's good just like distill down to that and you're just like cool use it versus this company i have no idea about wix okay **Mark Zemanski:** you **Matt Medeiros:** know i --- ### [Shifting Towards Closed Source?](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8a976de5-6b39-4f09-a564-85921ec8b37d) 🎧 57:04 - 59:33 (02:29) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/e42337f5-7418-4d62-b055-90884b1813b7" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Society might be shifting away from open source towards closed, commercially driven models. - This shift is driven by the need for businesses to survive and protect their investments. #### 💬 Quote > - It is my belief, my hypothesis, that the world, again, and the general average person [...] that wants to know and values the open source aspect of things that cares about all that, I think is shrinking. > — Mark Zemanski Mark Zemanski's hypothesis about a societal shift away from open source. #### 📚 Transcript **Mark Zemanski:** So that's my shorthand version of that. But let me, one thing on this is, and this is maybe another topic that kind of revolves around that, but this concept of, I don't have any data. This is a hypothesis, just thinking about this. It is my belief, my hypothesis, that the world, again, and the general average person is not like you just explained there. The archetype that you just painted yourself as that wants to know and values the open source aspect of things that cares about all that, I think is shrinking. I'm not saying it's a good thing. I just think it's happening. And it's purely, the assumption is purely based off of all of the social media that has sprouted up in the last 10 years or so, right? Where we're just handing our shit over, our over into a locked black box. And we are, like, it's a give and take. Like you can, there's people that are creating brands and garnishing attention these platforms. But at any time, they could pull the switch and it could be gone, right? But the problem is, and this is, again, another topic for a different discussion, is the level of distribution is, like, the distribution part is so, you told me this. Like, I mean, I'm not telling anything you don't know. But the distribution is so valuable that people are willing to do that and take those risks. And honestly, in some cases, I can't really fault them entirely for doing that. I do think maybe you should still have your own open source platform. Obviously, we're, you know, proof of that and everything. But I'm just saying that I worry, genuinely kind of worry, and maybe this is the concept, is that I'm literally being swayed in that direction because I am starting to see all the perils of open source from WordPress, but also you can kind of like you even just mentioned a little bit on the other platforms. They're not like full, uh, you know, everything's free. Everything's open because they understand that they still have to make money and they have to protect some of their shit. I kind of also totally agree with that, that if I put my blood, sweat, and tears into building something, I also want to kind of own it to a degree. Maybe not everything, but like the main shit that's going to make me money. That just doesn't sound like a good business decision to give everything away for free. So I think people are seeing all of the things that have came before them, the CMS stuff that's came before them, the open source pieces just in that realm. And they're like, hmm, maybe we're not going to do it just like that. And I feel like over time, it's going to continue to go that route where we just don't have, there will still be open source stuff, but it's not going to be like the entirety of everything that you have. And --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts