# What Psychedelics Taught Glennon  ## Episode metadata - Episode title: What Psychedelics Taught Glennon - Show: We Can Do Hard Things - Owner / Host: Treat Media and Glennon Doyle - Episode publish date: 2025-10-14 - Episode AI description: Glennon shares her wild journey with therapeutic psychedelics, revealing a macro-dosing mishap that had her tripping during Zoom calls. She delves into vivid visions, including encounters with her ancestors and the influence of Sinéad O’Connor. The experience shifts her perspective from fear as a personal flaw to an inherited survival pattern, fostering compassion and understanding. Discover how the phrase 'I don’t know' transformed her mindset and offered healing insights. - Mentioned books: [Untamed](https://share.snipd.com/book/41e2e788-d844-491d-b5ed-d174ed62a432) by [Glennon Doyle](https://share.snipd.com/person/48134b7f-7279-4cd2-8ec5-d7e2b3eac81c) - Duration: 01:13:58 - Episode URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/episode/b6986cca-370f-4dea-8e6a-6f37f4ecd821) - Show URL: [Open in Snipd](https://share.snipd.com/show/2e370322-d6ce-4d48-93a0-ab63ee84c0a9) - Export date: 2026-02-17T23:33:06 ## Snips ### [Reluctant Start To A Therapeutic Experiment](https://share.snipd.com/snip/ec4f18fd-6310-42c1-adf2-00619ce4213b) 🎧 02:30 - 05:32 (03:02) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/fec6568c-7ba3-4334-8e0e-9c9f34724129" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Glennon resisted therapeutic psychedelics for years before agreeing during an eating-disorder plateau. - She learned psychedelics can be a structured method for breaking rigid thinking tied to anorexia. #### 💬 Quote > I told myself two years ago when I did psychedelic drugs as a therapeutic method that I would never tell these stories publicly... Therapeutic journeys. > — Glennon Doyle Glennon Doyle on initially hiding her psychedelic therapy decision #### 📚 Transcript **Glennon Doyle:** I told myself two years ago when I did psychedelic drugs as a therapeutic method that I would never tell these stories publicly just because I just could not be another white lady from L.A. whose life was changed by psychedelics. So to the point where even in our last book, and we can do hard things, you will see sections where I'm like, and then I had a thought. And then I had this vision. And they are from trips. But I just couldn't bring myself to be that guy. Therapeutic journeys. However, I actually did tell the stories of my psychedelic experiences on tour. Because I was like, oh, this is just our family meeting. Like, nobody will. Right. So I just asked everybody. It's just a **Amanda Doyle:** small group of our closest friends. It's like a kind of finite number of We Can Do Hard Things listeners. cities of tens of thousands of people and so it's just intimate but but okay what i **Glennon Doyle:** will say though about our community is that over the last 20 years because we've been doing versions of these town halls or tours for 20 years where we gather everybody in their communities and we just sit and talk for hours i have said amazingly private things in those rooms over the years. I have said to thousands of people, y'all, this is going to stay between us. And it does. How the hell does that work? Because our community is freaking amazing. We really trust them. And they actually listen to private stuff. It's cool. I know. I'm like, this is between us. And it's 5,000 people. And they're like, gotcha. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. So that's what happened with the psychedelic story. But I just felt like the rest of the pod squad. Needed to know. Deserved to hear this too. Needed to know. I'm so excited. I'm **Amanda Doyle:** so excited that you're telling them. So **Glennon Doyle:** let me set the stage. This last round of recovery, which everyone knows about who, who was a part of this community where I got the anorexia diagnosis a couple of years ago and then went into intensive treatment. Okay. There were people, experts, doctors throughout the process who kept saying to me, we really think that you should try psychedelics as part of your therapy, as part of your treatment. I was hell bent against it. Because mostly because I didn't understand the whole **Amanda Doyle:** genre. And because you're an addict who has figured out that maybe drugs don't **Glennon Doyle:** work with you. Exactly. But that's why I didn't, but that is related to not understanding. I didn't understand at the time that this is actually a method. Psychedelics are actually a method of treating addiction and treating. --- ### [Rigidity In Thinking And Neuroplasticity](https://share.snipd.com/snip/d78324d3-24f3-4f3b-bbd0-c1648a406838) 🎧 06:01 - 08:06 (02:05) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/73a0fcf3-e0ff-4213-ada7-bd29c586a526" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Glennon explains anorexia as a "rigid thinking" neuropathway that repeats survival behaviors. - Psychedelics can create neuroplasticity and reveal new mental paths beyond worn grooves. #### 💬 Quote > It's that, um, when it's about rigid thinking, it's about not being able to see outside of one tiny neuropathway. > — Glennon Doyle Glennon Doyle on why psychedelics help rigid thinkers #### 📚 Transcript **Glennon Doyle:** It's that, um, when it's about rigid thinking, it's about not being able to see outside of one tiny neuropathway. It's about every time there's a trigger, every time I get scared about the world or the family or anything, I go to, okay, I can, I know how to keep myself safe. I know. And I go to food. It is a disorder of rigid thinking. And so if you think about like a mountain where a bunch of skiers are going down, okay. And there are pathways, um, kind smushed into the snow. Ski slopes. Ski slopes. Is that? Okay. So there's slopes. I thought the slope was the whole mountain. **Abby Wambach:** It is, but you're grooving. You're putting ski grooves and yes. **Glennon Doyle:** Okay. So there's like ski paths where you put your skis and you're gonna naturally go down a path because it's well worn okay you're not gonna like forge your way through a new fresh snow because that doesn't make any sense that it's like the least resistance is the path that's already created and that's what your brain does okay a neuropathway is basically the the road most traveled the thought that you've gone to the most times over and over again until it feels and looks like and actually is experienced as the only path possible. You don't even look up enough or know that there's fresh snow everywhere, that you could actually go a different way with your thoughts and create an entirely new path, entirely new experience. And so what, um, one thing that psychedelics do and why they're prescribed to rigid thinkers is because it's a way to create new paths that suddenly the fresh snow is everywhere. And you can like somehow find new ways to think new, different ways to get down the mountain that might be less destructive. **Abby Wambach:** You're like skiing in powder is what they call it. Meaning **Amanda Doyle:** like you're laying down new tracks. Right. And this is the science of neuroplasticity. --- ### [Plan, Prep, And Test Before A Journey](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c2bfad52-4ea7-48b8-b82d-d87c62d4151d) 🎧 10:03 - 12:52 (02:49) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/74500859-1637-4138-a950-6720cfa45020" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Prepare weeks of therapy, intentions, and integration before a guided psychedelic journey. - Use microdosing tests to check interactions with SSRIs before full journeys. #### 💬 Quote > A lot of therapy goes beforehand... Then there's a lot of integration post meetings where you talk about what you experienced. > — Glennon Doyle Glennon Doyle describing the therapy, prep, and integration process for journeys #### 📚 Transcript **Glennon Doyle:** And then there is a lot of lead up preparation that has to do with identifying intentions, wishes, questions, goals. A lot of therapy goes beforehand. Then there is the actual journey. Then there's a lot of integration post meetings where you talk about what you experienced and how it might apply to your life and how you might integrate it into your thinking in your life to start afresh. **Abby Wambach:** Okay. So basically what you're saying is that you don't just show up one day and you sit with a doctor and they give you some drugs and you do drugs with somebody watching. **Glennon Doyle:** That wasn't my experience. What **Abby Wambach:** you are saying that is your experience is that it was weeks of prep, months of prep, talking to this therapist who was going to be facilitating the journey, getting you to the journey, taking you through the journey, and then also facilitating integrations post-journey. Right. Got it. So the **Glennon Doyle:** first thing the therapist says is, and I'm going to be paraphrasing everything. I'm a storyteller, not a doctor. Okay. So just don't me if **Amanda Doyle:** it's not clear so far. **Glennon Doyle:** Right. So the therapist says, there are some challenges. We're going to get through them together. One of the challenges is that we have to find out if the psychedelics are going to break through your antidepressant because you have been on antidepressants since you were a toddler. And that **Abby Wambach:** was paraphrased. So **Glennon Doyle:** in, I'm not on them anymore, but at the time I was on them, that can create a bit, basically you're just like one big human Lexapro. So we have to see if this is going to be able to break through enough, the barrier of that to have an experience. I say, okay, can **Amanda Doyle:** I ask you a question about that? Does that mean are SSRIs always a block to, or maybe you don't know, but chemically they like don't allow the psychedelics to do **Glennon Doyle:** their thing? Sometimes. And that's what she told me okay sometimes SSRIs will block the psychedelics from doing their thing so there needs to be some sort of experiment beforehand to see okay if it's going to break through right so she says to me what we're going to do is I am going to you're going to take a micro dose of the psychedelics just to see if we have any reaction. And she said, what that will feel like is I will give you some micro doses and you will take them. And basically you will feel nothing. Like if we're really lucky, you might feel like some tingling in your toes or something, and then we'll know, but that, that this is going to work. --- ### [Microdose That Became A Macro Trip](https://share.snipd.com/snip/597da5dd-8e3a-407e-80f4-fdd9e4a37d68) 🎧 13:07 - 22:12 (09:05) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/53941234-e96b-42c3-9a6b-25e28a9545ca" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Glennon accidentally took a full macro dose believing eight pills equaled 0.2 and tripped unexpectedly during Zoom meetings. - Abby intervened, put her in timeout on the patio, and managed the unexpected trip. #### 💬 Quote > I thought that the envelope was one dose of 0.2. And so I took all eight pills before the meeting and now I'm tripping balls. > — Glennon Doyle Glennon Doyle recounting the accidental overconsumption of microdoses #### 📚 Transcript **Glennon Doyle:** And she says, you have to come and pick them up. And I say, well, I'm not going to do that. That sounds scary because I that is drugs and this sounds very shady and scary so i send abby to pick up to do the drug deal okay and she comes back you go and do it and it was fine it was totally fine totally normal right she comes back with two envelopes okay and she puts them in my top underwear drawer now were **Abby Wambach:** they envelopes or the ziploc i **Glennon Doyle:** think they were envelopes weren't they little envelopes i **Abby Wambach:** don't know i i can't remember okay **Glennon Doyle:** well one of them said point one and one of them said point two okay and my job was to one morning over the next week take 0.2 then an hour later take a 0.1 and see if my toes tingle at some point that day that was my job yeah okay great so I wake up one morning we have a full day of meetings and I actually forgot to tell Abby that I was going to try it that day which I probably should have in retrospect. However, I was assured that nothing dramatic was going to happen. **Amanda Doyle:** Okay. **Glennon Doyle:** Right. I don't tell her **Amanda Doyle:** every time my toes are tingling. Exactly. Yeah, but hold on a second. This **Glennon Doyle:** was a **Abby Wambach:** big oversight. I **Glennon Doyle:** agree now. In retrospect, we all know. **Abby Wambach:** It wasn't even the biggest oversight. I mean, it's so weird because we tell each other everything. I know. It's just a weird thing **Glennon Doyle:** i think that i felt a still a little bit of shame to be doing drugs i think i felt like nervous about it but you made me go get pick them up i'm an addict i'm used to hiding drugs okay **Amanda Doyle:** so rule number one of doing **Glennon Doyle:** drugs you don't talk about doing drugs. Exactly. So I wake up one morning, take a shower, take point two. **Abby Wambach:** Are you sure you were supposed to take point two or were you supposed to take point first. Okay, okay. Okay, **Glennon Doyle:** take point two. We have a full docket of meetings that day. Zoom, zoom, zooming, zoom, zoom, zooms. Okay, so Abby and I sit down at our little table in the corner in the family room and we get on our first meeting and like **Abby Wambach:** which is insane now in retrospect sorry no **Glennon Doyle:** it's okay so like 20 minutes into the meeting i'm like what is happening like i feel like all these boxes are kind of moving and people look weird, but I am very dramatic. And I can be psychosomatic as shit. I am like, give me any placebo pill and I will give you your result. Like I am. Right. Right. My mind is very powerful. So you're like, look, it worked. So I was like, shut up, Glennon. I'm talking to myself. I'm like, you're supposed to only feel your toes tickle. This is not. But then the boxes a little bit start changing. It's a little changing. And so I say, I think I should tell my wife I'm on drugs right now. I just think that I should mention this. So I mute and I say, I did the microdose thing this morning and I just, I'm feeling a little bit weird, but I don't think it's anything. I think I'm just going to carry on. I'm going to keep the protocol. I'm going to go take my 0.1 because it's been an hour. **Abby Wambach:** Now, hold on just a second. I would like the pod squad to really think about what it might feel like to be to work with your spouse, to be on work, Zoom meetings, talking about business and things and that. wife mutes the the call and says so I did those micro doses this that micro dose this morning and I'm kind of feeling something I think it's probably fine what would you do under those circumstances well **Glennon Doyle:** what you did I said I'm gonna go take my my booster my point one and I started walking away very carefully I was walking very carefully and I believed I was walking away I think I was and I was because the next thing I knew I was in my bedroom downstairs and Abby was right behind me so clearly she had stopped the meeting and said I'm gonna go I gotta go you guys off right Yeah. So she's behind me. The thing I know, PodSquad, I have the.1 envelope, and I've poured all the.1 in my hand. And I have my water, and I'm getting ready to pop all the eight pills that are in my hand into my mouth. And Abby lunges towards me, shoves my hand down so that all the pills fly over the room. And this is a strange occurrence in the midst of an hour. That has been a very strange occurrence so far. I'm confused about what's going on and why my wife has just scattered my microdose boost about the room. That you were specifically told to take that point one. So then my wife looks at me and she goes, honey, show me the point two envelope right now. Show me the envelope. So of course I show her the empty envelope which had eight pills in it but is now empty because pod squad i don't know if you're with me right now but i thought that the 0.2 meant that all these pills together equal 0.2. I thought that the envelope was one dose of 0.2. And so I took all eight pills before the meeting and now I'm tripping balls. **Abby Wambach:** I'm just like, you guys, those that are listening she kind of like walks kind of she she she nonchalantly says i think that you know i took the microdose and i'm gonna i have to take another booster so i'm gonna go down and i was like this doesn't sound right something doesn't sound right so i walked downstairs she's got all of these pills ready to take them. And I was like, what is that? What are you doing? She's like, I'm doing the booster. And just like Glennon said, I just like how many pills? I was just thinking how many pills were in the point two? How many pills were in her hand? It is a lot to take eight pills **Glennon Doyle:** of **Abby Wambach:** something. **Glennon Doyle:** Yeah, I really did. Eight. Right. So what is.2 times 8? It's a lot is what it is. And so now she's talking to me about math and how could I think.2 is 8 pills. And she keeps saying, at any point when you were taking all of those pills, did your mind say, this doesn't feel right? And she's talking about math and all i can think of is that my wife talking is this my life is this my beautiful wife oh my god is my beautiful home what is happening and so the next thing i know now i i kind of come to when i'm laying on the bathroom floor i remember hysterically laughing on the bathroom floor while she tried to explain to me what I had done. I do remember a **Abby Wambach:** flash of that. That was one of the funniest moments of my life. **Glennon Doyle:** But you were scared, too. I do remember thinking, she's scared, and that's scaring me. Your face looked a little scared. I **Abby Wambach:** was concerned, not because I thought you were going to die or anything, by any means. because what I was concerned with was that the whole point of you micro dosing was to make sure that these new chemicals that you would one day in the week ahead be adding something more into the brain chemistry, right? And so with your SSRIs, and I just wanted to make sure we weren't going to have any adverse reaction. Right. **Glennon Doyle:** Exactly. So I didn't think you were going to die. I just thought maybe you'd feel **Abby Wambach:** very upset or or not good. Right. **Amanda Doyle:** She's not qualified to go on a journey is what she said. I am not I am ill prepared for a journey at this point. So so but in fairness to you, two ice in fairness to you something is labeled point two you could think this cumulatively is point hold on let me do the math on that it didn't **Glennon Doyle:** say just it didn't say point **Amanda Doyle:** two eight of each it didn't it just said.2. So what are we, pharmacologists? I don't think so. Then **Abby Wambach:** would be.025 per pill. Does that make sense? **Glennon Doyle:** Well, anyway. **Abby Wambach:** We don't know things. We're new to this. **Glennon Doyle:** I don't think I should have to do math in my drugs. Like, I just, I don't, I never had to do that. --- ### [Breakthrough Validated The Treatment Plan](https://share.snipd.com/snip/e18990f1-cd30-4a7a-90c8-a8c3c4f9217d) 🎧 27:01 - 35:50 (08:49) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/e79fc89d-f1d2-4b81-a7cc-50bdef6a0623" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The successful microdose test convinced clinicians the medicine could "break through" her antidepressant barrier. - That cleared the way to schedule a properly guided journey day at home. #### 💬 Quote > The good news was that it did in fact break through... indeed it broke through so that experiment while not flawless was complete and we could move forward with the journey. > — Glennon Doyle Glennon Doyle after recounting her accidental trip and its meaning for treatment #### 📚 Transcript **Glennon Doyle:** Anyway, the next thing I remember is Abby has walked me up the stairs. So she put me out on this little deck that we have on the front of our house. It's like on the street. We live very, very, very close to our neighbor. So it's kind of like two feet from our neighbors. She sits me in the corner. And she says, in timeout. In a timeout. I'm in timeout. And she says, stay here. **Abby Wambach:** Yeah. Okay. And I just want to be clear. I want the folks who are listening to understand my thought process during this time. Right. **Amanda Doyle:** Mm-hmm. I **Abby Wambach:** have also experienced with psychedelics in my lifetime as a recreational shroom doer. And being put into an enclosed space where nobody's watching you is **Glennon Doyle:** not something that I felt very comfortable **Abby Wambach:** with. So I couldn't, I needed to call the doctor. I needed to call her therapist. And so I needed to also be able to have eyes on Glennon while I was talking to her therapist. So this was the only see-through door, glass door. So I put her on the patio. It's enclosed. It's totally safe. She's sitting there. To think about what she had done. Yes. Continue. I just needed people to understand, like, why would you put her on the patio? It's the only place in our house that has a glass door. So **Glennon Doyle:** I remember thinking, this is nice to be in the fresh air. Then I remember staring at my neighbor's roof. That doesn't even make a lot of sense. I don't know how, actually, as I say this out loud, I don't know how I'm staring at the neighbor's roof. Because that feels like it should have been higher than where I was. But I do remember staring at my neighbor's roof. And then I remember my neighbor's roof was Paisley and rolling, rolling Paisley, rolling hills of Paisley. And I remember thinking that's not exactly right. And then I remember, I would have remembered that. And then I remember hearing as if I had supersonic hearing because Abby was all the way on the side of the kitchen. Say talking to the doctor and sounding like it was going to be OK. And then I remember thinking. Thank God almighty. The children are at Craig's. I just thought that I don't know what's about to happen me right now, but I know it shouldn't involve children. That's all I know. And so thank God for that. Now, pod squad, I'm sitting there enjoying confusedly the paisley roof. next thing I know, I turn to my right, and Tish is sitting next to me. Okay, now, I'm not even sure at first that Tish is actually sitting next to me. It takes me a minute to be like, you just more paisley or is this for real because this can't be happening tish walks in how did she get there how how has it been six hours has it been one hour who am i who is she where am i how **Abby Wambach:** did she get there it's a good question um i don't know she also kind of just appeared out of nowhere. She just walked upstairs, saw you outside and sat down right next to you. And I'm inside talking to the doctor about how you're tripping because you didn't microdose, macrodosed. **Glennon Doyle:** And **Abby Wambach:** I am now like, oh, fuck, I got to get out there because I got to get out there because I didn't want Tish to be scared and feel like she's witnessing her mom. This was supposed to be done in private. That's why, you know, next time we talk about this kind of stuff before we do it. Yeah. So that's the back story there. **Glennon Doyle:** So Amanda, she sits next to me and I look at her and now I'm understanding that she is real and this is really happening. She has a laptop in her lap. She says the following to me, mom, can you edit my college essays? And she picks up her laptop and she puts it in my lap. I, that's worth the math. I've now been asked to do math and now I'm being asked to do literature in the first 20 minutes of my trip. I, I don't remember how, I don't remember what computers are or like what paragraphs are or what colleges or what, but I do remember words words and I can't find them I it's it's it's making the words are moving everything's moving but I do remember in my smart little brain something which is that oftentimes I think when I'm remembering back to my previous life before I was on so many drugs, I do think I remember from that realm that when people are reading something or experiencing something that people they love have made, that they make noises. **Abby Wambach:** Oh, my God. remember this. That **Amanda Doyle:** they go, oh, so, so **Glennon Doyle:** I just sit there next to Tish with the little computer open in my lap and I do not look at her. No, I just look at this, the white thing with the black things in front of me and I just go, Oh. And I just do that for a little while. I think I'm pulling it off. I don't see her. I mean, she doesn't really pay attention to me anyway. I feel like it's going all right. Right. It's going all right. It's going pretty good. And as long as I don't have to say anything specific about what's happening. Right. Don't change any punctuation. No. So the next thing I know, Abby comes. She swoops Tish away and the computer that's on my lap. And then she puts me in a room. **Abby Wambach:** You just said to Tish, though, just keep going. Is that what I said? Yeah, you said just keep going. Just keep going. **Glennon Doyle:** Good advice for a writer. That was smart of you. **Abby Wambach:** You're on the right track. Keep **Glennon Doyle:** Keep going. And then i think somehow you made tish leave the house right **Abby Wambach:** somehow you **Glennon Doyle:** got her out you got her out you got me safe um well **Abby Wambach:** i think that i was like what are you up to today and she's like oh i gotta go do this thing and i was like awesome that's great so then i awesome do **Glennon Doyle:** it now yeah then i corralled corraled **Abby Wambach:** you in the bedroom right **Amanda Doyle:** well the best part of this is that when you told this story for the first time on stage, we didn't know you were going to tell it. And Tish had just opened the show for us and was sitting in the audience. And I was watching her face watch you tell the story. And it was so amazing. And when she came backstage for the first time at the first show, she was like, you were high **Glennon Doyle:** when you edited my college essay. It was so **Amanda Doyle:** funny. I know. It's like we forgot that she was there or something like that. **Glennon Doyle:** Exactly. Thank God she still got into a college. Anyway. I know. So the good news was that it did in fact break through okay indeed indeed it broke through so that experiment while not flawless was complete and we could move forward with the journey okay i. I recovered from that. It was a lost day. A lot happened. I watched friends for a long time because I thought this is something I can understand. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't understand friends. That's another story. That was a difficult time. I was like, why is Joey like that? Like what? Why is Monica? She was like, stop. I was like, is this a play? I kept saying, is this a play? Anyway. Anyway. I **Abby Wambach:** mean, if you all knew how much we, this family has watched Friends over the years, it's like Tisha's go-to. We've watched it five iterations. **Glennon Doyle:** Yeah, a comfort show. So for her **Abby Wambach:** not to understand Friends was a difficult time for me. **Glennon Doyle:** I still feel confused about it. Anyway, it broke through. --- ### [Frozen In A Dark Realm Before The Turn](https://share.snipd.com/snip/f591f3db-bb1e-4b7f-97f4-91319ef87300) 🎧 42:59 - 45:48 (02:48) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/25977628-d853-4567-9e79-b0ffcdfc6116" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - During the guided journey Glennon first felt trapped in a dark dragon-like realm and remained frozen and terrified for hours. - She realized she didn't ask for help despite a therapist being present, mirroring past patterns. #### 💬 Quote > I was in a very strange, scary, dark world that I couldn't figure out where I was or what it was. > — Glennon Doyle Glennon Doyle describing the initial terrifying phase of her guided journey #### 📚 Transcript **Glennon Doyle:** So, so what happens is that the therapist comes. I have my questions written out. I have my little thing, which is just like some flowers. And I have a picture of my sister and me and Abby and me and then the kids in front of me. And then I lay down. In my particular case, I took MDMA and then waited an hour I didn't feel anything from that and then I took the I drank a mug of tea which was the psychedelics. Psilocybin. **Abby Wambach:** Right. Now **Glennon Doyle:** what I will explain is that at first I was like nothing I don't feel anything and then I was like oh shit okay I had a feeling of oh shit and I don't know how I transitioned to this situation but I was laying on the couch and I had like she had given me a mask thing and the next thing I knew I was I guess from the outside I looked like I was just laying there with a mask on. I think how **Amanda Doyle:** it appeared was I was laying there with an eye mask on. My consciousness **Glennon Doyle:** was that I was in a very strange, scary, dark world that I couldn't figure out where I was or what it was. And it felt like kind of dragon-y. You **Abby Wambach:** also had headphones on. **Glennon Doyle:** Oh, I had headphones on, right, which had some music in it, which was all a part of this strange, scary. And so for a long time, I just was frozen and very scared. I did not think of anything else to do, but to just lay there and be frozen and paralyzed and scared. So that's what I did for a very long time. It turns out like a couple hours. Okay. Were you aware that you were laying there believing **Amanda Doyle:** that you were in a strange realm? Or did you believe you were in a strange realm? believe **Glennon Doyle:** that I was in a strange realm. That is my retrospective understanding of what was happening. **Amanda Doyle:** Otherwise, why would I **Glennon Doyle:** have just stood there? I would have taken off the mask. That was my first question. wasn't even locked. The door wasn't even locked. It felt like it was. It felt like I was in this scary, scary realm. I was drenched with sweat. Two hours in, I finally say, I think it's a very interesting parallel to life for me, is not asking, just being like, I'll just be terrified and alone for a long time, even though there's someone sitting there who --- ### [Fear As A Generational Survival Mechanism](https://share.snipd.com/snip/8f684321-9685-4304-9a07-1b363fe3fcff) 🎧 51:20 - 55:54 (04:34) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/881842da-3173-41da-83de-5855ac31971d" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Asking the medicine "Why am I so scared?" transported Glennon into a family lineage memory of a child awaiting abuse. - She felt the fear as inherited generational nervous-system training, not solely personal trauma. #### 💬 Quote > The medicine took me to some moment in time where someone in our family line was waiting to be beaten. > — Glennon Doyle Glennon Doyle on discovering ancestral sources of her fear during the journey #### 📚 Transcript **Glennon Doyle:** So I just say medicine. Why am I so scared? Okay. Now is when I try to explain something that's really hard to explain to the pod squad in a way that i feel like you will understand even if i don't say all the exact words okay the next thing i know right after i've said medicine why am i so scared i am no longer in the dark dragon realm. I am sitting on the floor in a cold basement. I'm my age now. I'm an adult. You, Amanda, are sitting down there with me and there is a child in the middle of us. **Abby Wambach:** Amanda's her her current age. Amanda's **Glennon Doyle:** a grown up. **Abby Wambach:** Oh, wow. You're both grown ups. OK. Yeah. **Glennon Doyle:** But we're both grown ups in the basement with a child. We're both in the grown. We're both grown ups ourselves. ourselves right now, but we're sitting in a cold, dark basement, and there's a child between us. Okay. Without getting into any specifics, what I want you to know is that the child that was sitting between us is a relative of ours. And what we were experiencing with this child, the child was very scared. The child was like holding the child's self and was scared. And we were comforting this child. This child was a relative of ours who had suffered abuse as a child. Okay? What we were doing in the basement with this child was waiting for the child's parent to come down the stairs and beat the child. You and I, when I asked the medicine, why am I so scared? The medicine took me to some moment in time where someone in our family line was waiting to be beaten. And that fear in that relative's body that that relative um embodied **Abby Wambach:** as **Glennon Doyle:** a child to deal with the abuse is what was passed on in our lineage because when a person is abused, that person's nervous system, talk about needing to be hypervigilant, right? Like that person's becomes a certain way in their body and then that is passed on generation to generation. And even if the abuse stops, which God bless our family line, that physical abuse stopped, there is still an anticipatory fear in the body that something terrible is about to happen and we must brace ourselves. That is a family legacy. Why am I so afraid that something terrible is always about to happen? There I am on the floor with a little kid who is absolutely positive that something terrible is about to happen because it is and has learned as a family survival skill that we will brace ourselves. We will be ready. We will be prepared. We will survive that. So when I explain to you, I don't understand. I don't begin to understand what the hell psychedelics are, what the hell this story is. I don't even know. But what I'm telling you is I have read 70,000 million gazillion trillion books about this. I could have told you in my brain this. I knew this. And I never knew this until I was sitting in that. I knew it in my body then. I knew in my body that this fear is actually not mine. It's not native to me in my spirit. --- ### [Embodied Knowing Led To Compassion](https://share.snipd.com/snip/38669d41-4a26-41c1-b5cf-6d06038b0c19) 🎧 56:33 - 57:38 (01:04) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/34d6511b-0264-4e7e-8725-7302615f8fc7" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - The journey shifted Glennon's knowledge from intellectual to embodied knowing about inherited fear. - That somatic insight replaced blame with deep compassion for ancestral survival tactics. #### 💬 Quote > I knew it in my body then. I knew in my body that this fear is actually not mine. > — Glennon Doyle Glennon Doyle describing the bodily realization about inherited fear #### 📚 Transcript **Glennon Doyle:** I don't feel like, um, all I know now is that I have a bodily understanding of where the, where the fear is and what it is and what it's from and that I can see it now. I can see and feel the familial armoring up and the fear and the nervous system. And I can have like, I think one of the things it does is it really adds all kinds of compassion. Like I have so much, I have spent a lot of time being really angry about why didn't things weren't more perfect? Why didn't people get their shit together? Why didn't this get worked out and that didn't get worked out? And why? And I still feel some of that, like that's not, but, but I feel like this huge compassion around what every generation goes through and what we pass on and what we don't. --- ### [Forest, Sinead O'Connor, And The Power Of "I Don't Know"](https://share.snipd.com/snip/c6435b69-99a8-4f87-a598-21c663cd1cdc) 🎧 01:00:25 - 01:04:44 (04:18) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/85221048-2104-485f-81a5-cf0545448cbe" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - After the basement scene Sinead O'Connor appeared as a guiding presence and Glennon entered a joyful forest where she reclaimed childlike wonder. - Saying "I don't know" repeatedly unlocked celebration and maintained awe instead of analysis. #### 💬 Quote > The words I don't know were magical words that made the entire realm celebrate that this little girl was just back in the I don't know. > — Glennon Doyle Glennon Doyle on how admitting "I don't know" reopened wonder during her trip #### 📚 Transcript **Glennon Doyle:** It was like the dark dragon thing turned into this like forest. It felt, and the rest of the day, the rest of the journey was utterly beautiful. And I'll tell you a little bit about it. But what was cool about that for me in retrospect was the idea of like, that's what we talk about all the time. It's like first the pain, then the rising, like go to the fear thing, face it, there it is. And then freedom is how the journey felt. So after the basement experience, the only way I can describe it is that while Sinead O'Connor came, one of the notes in my therapist thing I my therapist said in her notes that she's never heard anyone in the history of the universe all combined together talk about Sinead O'Connor as much as I did during my eight hour journey. Sinead O'Connor was like my guide throughout the whole thing. And I have you two know I have very deep feelings and love for Sinead O'Connor for a million different reasons. But I am slightly obsessed. **Abby Wambach:** I have slight jealousy about Sinead. So **Glennon Doyle:** that was interesting. Also Sinead's whole, you know, so much of her work was about abuse and generational trauma and Irish families and religious trauma and oppression and all of it. I'm in the forest. It's a new realm, okay? I am now, I've gone through the thing where I figure out why I'm so scared, and then now I'm a different version of myself. I'm not an adult. I'm a kid again, which I loved because suddenly I was like a fresh, unafraid version of myself. So it was like, it was like, now you're going to look at yourself. Had you not had that fear. Okay. It was a fearless childlike version of me. And I was walking through the forest and I was a little kid and I, um, had a little notebook. Okay. I had a little notebook and I was delightedly writing down all the things that I saw. Just look at the trees, look at the butterflies. Oh my God, the cloud. Like just writing down all the things I saw. And then this crazy shit happened, which is my little girl observed herself, delighted observer self started to ask why I was writing down what I was writing down what I saw, what I heard, what I felt. And then I started to say, why? Why am I here? Why is this like that? And everything would go dark. The forest would go dark. When **Amanda Doyle:** you asked why. When asked And **Glennon Doyle:** I couldn't figure out why it kept going off and on. And then Something in me said I was in the why place of my brain. I was like stuck in the why. And so there was no more forest and my little girl self was all stressed. And then I suddenly just go out loud because it was written down on the notes. I go, I don't know. The realm of the forest comes back to life. And not only did it come back to light and life, but there were fireworks. There were flowers exploding. Confetti. You it to me, yeah. It was like the words I don't know were magical words that made the entire realm celebrate that this little girl was just back in the I don't know. And so then I go back into the forest. I'm still in the forest. The celebration dies down. I'm walking. I'm writing. What are these beautiful things? And then I go, why? Darkness. I don't know. Celebration. I can control the realm by staying out of the analytical mind, in the awe and the observing mind. --- ### [Tell The Next Generation The Story](https://share.snipd.com/snip/17a07618-3a32-4059-a26b-b252510bffb7) 🎧 01:06:28 - 01:11:13 (04:44) <iframe src="https://share.snipd.com/embed/obsidian-player/snip/a7184929-076c-4c82-9525-ca28e2adeec5" width="100%" height="100" style="border: none; border-radius: 12px;" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-forms allow-popups allow-clipboard-write" ></iframe> - Use new language to explain inherited fear to children so they don't internalize hypervigilance. - Framing trauma as passed protective behavior helps reduce burden across generations. #### 💬 Quote > Putting language around it for the next generation is a key that gets them out of that cage too. > — Glennon Doyle Glennon Doyle on communicating family fear patterns to her children #### 📚 Transcript **Amanda Doyle:** It feels like both because I feel like you can only be astonished and tell about it when you can release this kind of cage of fear that you're in. You know, like the cage of fear keeps you out of awe and into self-preservation. And so I think it's beautiful that it was able to show you that why you're afraid. Because that is basically like, you are afraid for very, very good reason. And you are afraid biologically. And you are afraid because of the way that you were raised. Like, I think that it reminds me of the episodes that we did, not only with, with Galit Atlas, with the emotional inheritance. It's like that scientifically, you know, what people who survived famine, even, I mean, people who survived famine, their descendants have in their bodies biologically effects of famine. like not because of anything that happened gestationally or in pregnancy, but because your actual DNA expression changes because of the trauma that someone experiences. So it's like biologically. And then, and then when you're raised by someone who is legitimately afraid and has based their whole survival on their ability to navigate that fear, it is a difficult thing. Rendered less difficult by the fact that you don't have to face that particular trauma, right, that they had to. But you are still facing all the fears together. Like, and you are confused because you're looking around and saying, I don't, there must be something wrong with me because I don't see anything to fear here. But we're all so afraid. And I know we're supposed to be afraid and I'm raised to be afraid and I, I can sense the fear, but I don't even know where it is. It's an, and so not only is our wiring or actual biological wiring that, uh, biological inheritance, but the way we're raised to be like, this is how, this is what I can pass down to you to help you be safe. **Glennon Doyle:** From what? Is a **Amanda Doyle:** burden, right? And so we're constantly trying to figure out where it is and make it make sense. And that will make you, will be really exhausting and make you feel a little crazy when the whole world is telling you there's nothing to be afraid about, but you're very sure that it is. And, and then, so to be able to see that and be like, oh, that makes so much sense. And then to also be able to, like, when you first told me that story, it devastating to me and also so beautiful because it was, it made me feel like, The giver that I thought was of the hardest parts of me had actually given their best to give me the best parts of them. Yeah. And that had suffered a lot and had worked really hard to shield me from the particular inheritance that they had. And that they couldn't choose but pass down part of it and that I can't choose but to pass down part of mine but it will be smaller just like it was smaller to me it will be smaller to my people and then it will be smaller again. --- Created with [Snipd](https://www.snipd.com) | Highlight & Take Notes from Podcasts